Strike

[adunaphel]

As the previous one was about Adjustable, I open a new thread to speak of the Strike power.

The more I try to convert HTH fighters to P&P, the more I think the Strike power is at least underpowered, and perhaps even a little bit flawed.

In fact, when you buy this power, up to you’re Might level you’re basically only getting the capacity to use it as en active defense.

For a caracter with a Might of 4 or less, strike 3D-7D is in reality useless as you can have the effect by using a mundane weapon (max Migh 4 + 3 weapon bonus = 7D).

If you have, let’s say Might 4D and strike 8 D it costs you 8 HD to be able to make an attack 1D higher than you could anyway do with only your 4D Might (which cost 2 HD). So it’s an 6 HD investment for only +1 effect.

For the same price you could have a Might of 10D which is, in my opinion, in every way superior.

I think Strike should work as a Perk with that kind of wording :

Strike (1D) : You can make mêlee attacks at Close distance with Might +1D. You can also use you’re modified Might as an active defense againts physical close attacks. This perk can be bought more than once, increasing the bonus by +1 each time.

Some effects already work like that in the rules (as Combat porting, or Unkillable for exemple).

We could even adjust this to make it even consistant with Martial art and Blast, like that :

Strike (1D) : You can make mêlee attacks at Close distance with Might or Athletics/2 with a 1D bonus. You can also use you’re modified Might or athletics as an active defense againts physical close attacks. This perk can be bought more than once, increasing the bonus by +1D each time.

You buy Ranged in top of that (for 2D) and you got the blast power.

At last an other power makes you buy two times the same thing : Armor (up to you’re Toughness rank), but I think the enhanced defense bonus it provides conpensate enough for that (it makes the first 6D of armor not useless, as it is the case with strike).

What do you think would be umbalanced by that way of handling Strike ?

[LakeSide Len]

Thinking ....

[LakeSide Len]

You are correct. Strike is somewhat underpowered, especially so if you also have a reasonably good Might rank. Now, remember, if your Strike rank is less than your Might rank, you use Might + 1d, but that still may not be enough to properly model a certain character.

The reason we did it this way has less to do with game balance and more to do with game play: we wanted you to look at your Strike rank and say "That's how many dice I roll."

Your suggestion is good, but (1) I'm hesitant to let anyone spend only 1 hero die to use their full Might as an active defense, even though it will degrade by 2d if you also use it to attack on the same round of comabt, and (2) I would still like a player to be able to look at the Strike trait and say "That's how many dice I roll."

Consider this tweak, based on your idea:

Muscle Powered (+3d): This pro means that your Strike rank starts at your Might rank +1 instead of at 3d. The first hero die you put into gives you Strike at your Might rank +1, the second raises it to your Might rank +2, and do on. Your Strike rank is still limited to your trait cap.

By adding this pro, what you are effectively doing is paying 3d extra to be able to use your attack as an active defense against melee attacks.

Might 10d
= cost 8 hero dice: a 10d attack that cannot be used to defend.

Might 6d + Strike 10d (Muscle Powered)
= cost 11 hero dice (4 for Might + 7 for Strike): a 10d attack that can also be used as an active defense

Might 2d + Strike 10d (Muscle Powered)
= cost 11 hero dice (11 for Strike): a 10d attack that can also be used as an active defense

Might 9d + Strike 10d (Muscle Powered)
= cost 11 hero dice (7 for Might + 4 for Strike): a 10d attack that can also be used as an active defense

[cosmichunter]

While I agree with everything that the designer stated above, solely due to the fact that I agree with it, I have a few more considerations as well.

The first being that strike does not inherently have to be power of ones own martial capabilities alone. It can represent a sort of energy fist, or some other effect that adds an energy type to your physical damage. This, I would rule as a GM, give both a narrative and a mechanical benefit. On the concept of what I consider narrative benefit (that ultimately works to also be a mechanical one): If say Fireman with his fists of righteous flame (a strike power at let's say 5d with the flame descriptor) attacks Coldman with his ever burning fists, I as the GM would probably rule that Flameman gets a benefit (an extra die to his roll, but no more) due to the fact that in the elemental hierarchy as presented in comics and popular media: fire beats Ice.

Now I understand from a concept standpoint that some May view Energy Field as offering this ability by nature alone. I believe (forgive me since I don't have the book on Han at the moment) that Energy Field only applies damage for being touched, not trying to wallop someone with righteous flaming fists. As such, I would rule that this is a strike trait that May or may not have the limitation of only being able to block against that same energy toe or element,

This form of the strike trait I would not allow to be a perk, due to the fact that while perks can be thing like liquid form and gaseous form, I would argue that strike should not be a perk due to the fact that it is designed for damaging things which I think should be reserved for traits because they are how you accomplish actual actions.

[adunaphel]

Thx for your reply.

At first I would like to praise you for your openmindness. It’s quite rare that a game designer admit some choice he made may be sub-optimal.

As for your answer.

For the active defense part, it's already the case (it's even worst as you have also a bonus). If you have Might 10D as exemple and buy 3D strike (for 1 HD) you gain active defense and +1D attack.

I don’t think my proposition on Strike modify the way it may be red in the caracter sheet as it only really modify it’s cost.

For now you have : Might 4D, Strike 10D (cost 10 HD) and you could as well have Might 4D, Strike 10D (cost 8 HD).

For your solution, I think you’re math is odd. In you’re third exemple (Might 2D, Strike 10D) the cost would be 8 HD as it has no point on buying the « muscle powered » pro. In fact, in you proposition, the pro is usefull only at Might 6D or higher :

Might 2D Strike 10D – 8 HD
Might 3D Strike 10D – 9 HD
Might 4D Strike 10D – 10 HD
Might 5D Strike 10D – 11 HD or Might 5D Strike 10D (muscle powered) – 11HD

The cost is 11HD up to Might 10D, Strike 10D

The problem is that it makes no sense tu buy a Might between 5D and 9D, as 10D costs the same price.

Morover, it does not adress the problem of the use of mundane weapon who is better than strike up to 7D attack. And using a weapon is already giving active defense with Might for free.

The matter is that, basically, Strike gives you the same thing as Might (the capacity to make close range attacks) but without any real bonus and without the lifting capacity.

Where you should gain a bonus in fighting capacity by taking a power made for that, you're in fact giving up your lifting capacity for no benefit at all to compensate for it.

Strike is always a waste of HD, compared to Might XD + strike 3D where you wish to have an attack at X+1 level.

In fact, I think Might should gice you the active defense ability for free and strike give +2 effect for 1 level.

Exemple :

Might 4D (cost 2)

Strike 10D (+6 effect so cost : 3)

Total cost = 5 let you :

Lift with 4D, attack at 10D

If you have Might 6D :

Might 6D (cost 4)

Strike 10D (+4 effect so cost : 2)

Total cost = 6 let you :

Lift with 6D, attack at 10D

If you have Might 8 D :

Might 8 D (cost 6)

Strike 10D (+2 effect so cost : 1)

Total cost = 7 let you :

Lift with 8 D, attack at 10D

And with Might 10D, you don't have to buy anything to attack at 10D but it costs 8 HD.

That way it is cost consistant.

However, in that option, attack become less expensive than defense, which may be a problem.

Perhaps, we should take the problem the other way around and thinking on the way the basic traits are working.

What would you think of something like that (I voluntarily simplify the wording, as only the game effects are interesting me) :

Might : This trait determines how much you can lift. You can also make physical Close range attacks at Might/2, and use it as an active defense at Might/2.

Strike (Pro) (1D) : This pro can be bought multiple times. Each level giving you +1D to your Might for attacking and defending  only.

Athetics : This trait is usable for all physical activities (running, jumping…). This trait is also usable to make active defense rolls at Athlectics/2 againt ranged attacks and use range weapons at Athletics/2.

Nimble (Pro) (1D) : This pro can be bought multiple times. Each level giving you +1D to your Athletics for defending and attacking only.

Toughness : usable to resist environmental effects, poisons, diseases…  Can be used as a passive defense against physical attacks at Toughness/2.

Armor (pro) (1D): This pro can be bought multiple times. Each level giving you +1D to your Toughness for passive defense rolls.

Enhanced defense (3D): An active or passive defense of you’re choice does not suffer a -2D panalty when used multiple times in a page.

I drop the  « weaponry » and « martial arts » pro which I think are now useless.

That way, mundane weapons are more « reasonable » in effect, as they only go to 4D max for a Might 2D caracter and 5D for a Might 4D which keep it under le superpowered level (6D).

Same thing for mundane armor.

The cost is as follow :

Might 2D – Strike 10D : 9D (actual rules : 8 D)
Might 4D – Strike 10D : 10D (actual rules : 10D)
Might 6D – Strike 10D : 11D (actual rules 12D)
Might 8 D – Strike 10D : 12D (actual rules 14D)
Might 10D – Strike 10D : 13D (actual rules 16D)

I can give you a third (simplier in fact) way of handling this :

Perhaps, Might should not be the trait used for making attacks.

You could have a Fighting trait, for exemple, which permit close range attack and defense. And an other trait called Might giving lifting capacity and grapple use.

In that option, Athlectics should only permit defense againt ranged attacks.

That way, you can be a great fighter without having interest (point wise) at being very strong.

What’s your opinion on that ?

[LakeSide Len]

Hi!

First, thanks for the praise, but it's not necessary. You bought the game and it is yours to do with as you will. All I'm doing is giving you thoughts and ideas. And bad math! But again, thanks. Honestly, thank you for your interest in the game. Makes everything worthwhile.

Now, as to your comments. You are right about my math being wonky.

Your ideas are all good, and all viable on a quick review.

Regarding mundane items, there are a few things to keep in mind about them. One: they are items, so if you are comparing them to traits, consider that fact that those traits would have the Item flaw and be 1d cheaper. Two: they have the base 4d cap in place for everything, so any rank above 4d is effectively wasted on a mundane item. Three: they are not sacred, so unlike a character's Item-flaw-items, mundane items are subject to misfortunes (hello Adversity) like being damaged, destroyed, lost, stolen, etc. Thus, mundane items have "narrative" flaws that aren't really accounted for in just the numbers, but that should be taken into account.

Regarding design philosophy: Strike has to remain a trait because of the "That's how many dice I roll" element I mentioned earlier. That element of how the game works is more important to us than a perfectly balanced point cost economy. This is one instance where we feel that gameplay trumps game balance, and the ease of looking at Strike and knowing "That's how many dice I roll" is essential to our design. It's easier for younger gamers, and for newer gamers, and it's how we wanted the game to feel. So, whatever we do, at least ... drum roll please ... OFFICIALLY (trumpets, fanfare) we have to keep Strike as a trait.

One last thing: the game was playtested a lot, so we want to avoid too many changes or changes that are too sweeping. One change trips a lot of dominoes, including ones you didn't expect. Many changes or sweeping changes would require lots more playtesting.

All that said, you are right about the math. So let us noodle on it for a bit ....

Thanks!
Len

[LakeSide Len]

Okay, here is what we would do. It's not perfect. And it might not be necessary (despite the very real issue of Strike being somewhat underpowered from a cost perspective, this issue did not come up for us). However, if the point balance issue is an issue in your group, consider this version of the Strike trait.


OPTIONAL STRIKE VERSION
You have some kind of close combat attack described when you select this trait. You can use this trait to attack and defend yourself in melee combat. The stronger you are, the less this trait costs: you get a 1 hero die discount on this trait for every 2 full hero dice you spend on Might. For example, a 3d Might grants you no discount, a 7d Might grants you a 2 hero die discount, and a 10d Might grants you a 4 hero die discount. You must still spend at least 1 hero die to buy this trait. If you spend hero points to increase your Might in the future, your Strike rank will go up by 1 point for every full 2 points by which you raise your Might rank.


This change does 2 things: (1) you now get a discount based on how much you put into Might, and (2) you now cannot substitute your Might rank +1 for your Strike rank. You are still going to pay for Might (with its ability to lift stuff and impress people with your massive biceps) and for Strike (with its ability to be used as an active defense against melee) separately, but you will get some amount of discount for the overlap. It's not perfect -- an even numbered Might rank will effectively cost the same as the odd numbered Might rank below it (Might effectively costs the same as Might 7d because you get 1 extra hero die of discount) -- but it's good enough. And more importantly, it keeps Strike as a self-contained ability during game play "That's how many dice I roll.") and it doesn't require other sweeping changes.

[adunaphel]

Thanks for your quickness and the quality of your response.

In fact I really love you're game system.

I was looking for my SH rpg grail for some time, and looked at a lot the market (Marvel SH (the old one), Mervel Herois RPG (cortex), M&M 3, Champion, DC heroes (blood of heroes), Icons, BASH, Savage Worlds SH, Aberrant, vilains ans vigilants, and many more (there is a LOT of them), without finding exactly what I was lookinf for.

My quest ended with the release of P&P which is quite close to the Ubiquity system whichi I like a lot too.

But, the side effect of that quest, is that I became quite trained at finding game inconstistancies (not sure of the spelling of that one ).

I perfectly understand your position on trying to keep the inner logic of the system, and that perhaps I'm the only one bothered by the way Strike works.  However, I think that in cost buy system, optimization is soon on the table for the players, and the way it works make HTH fighter without a great Might very unlikely.

But my propositions have the sole purpose of improving you're already VERY goog game system.

As for you're solution, it appears as very effective and consistant.

The cost impact is as follow :

Might 4D - Strike 10D - Now (2 + (8-1)) = 9 HD before 2 + 8 = 10 HD (gain 1)
Might 5D - Strike 10D - Now (3 + (8-1)) = 10 HD before 3 + 8 = 11 HD (gain 1)
Might 6D - Strike 10D - Now (4 + (8-2)) = 10 HD before 4 + 8 = 12 HD (gain 2)
Might 7D - Strike 10D - Now (5 + (8-2)) = 11 HD before 5 + 8 = 13 HD (gain 2)
Might 8 D - Strike 10D - Now (6 + (8-3)) = 11 HD before 6 + 8 = 14 HD (gain 3)
Might 9D - Strike 10D - Now (7 + (8-3)) = 12 HD before 7 + 8 = 15 HD (gain 3)
Might 10D - Strike 10D - Now (8 + (8-4)) = 12 HD before 8 + 8 = 16 HD (gain 4) (that case is somewhat sub optimal, but it is whichever system you use)

I think it's fine as is (even for odd Might scores, the impact is not very important I find)

Having a 10D Might is as effective offensively than Strike 10D for only 8 HD, but it is compensated by the active defense option, and the possibility to take pro/con on the Strike part without influencing you're Might.

I really thank you, as that way I can create my writups with an "official" option, rather than a totally homemade one.

So, I'll stop bothering you with that damn Strike trait , but I think I will soon find another one (just kiding )

[LakeSide Len]

It's never a bother.

Happy to hear the solution works for you. That may make it into an errata/options release, so thanks for bringing it up.