Trick Arrows

[Nestor]

I'm working on a character conversion involving an archer with trick arrows.

Looking through the book, I see a mention of trick arrows in the Omni Power trait. The requirement to spend a point of Resolve every time it gets used, though, seems to make it a bit pricey.

My thought is to use the Variant pro several times to define the different arrows, like so:

Arrows: Blast (Marksmanship)	5d
Armor-Piercing: Variant: Blast 4d (Penetrating)	2d
Explosive: Variant: Blast 6d (Area)	2d
Smoke: Variant: Darkness 4d (Ranged)	2d
Flash: Variant: Dazzle 6d (Area)	2d
Net: Variant: Ensnare	2d
Gas: Variant: Stun 6d (Area)	2d
Line: Variant: Swing Line 4d	2d

The concept is that he would only be able to use one of those effects each action, based on which arrow he chooses to unleash.

I guess my question to the peanut gallery is: would you consider this build valid? And, if not, what would you recommend as an alternative?

[adunaphel]

I'm encountering the same king of problems to make builds with P&P.

In fact, it lacks a kind of "multipower" option, that group related powers not used at the same time and bought with a discount for that.

Variant does not do the trick as RAW as it must be used for the same power (different Blasts for exemple).

So I don't think your option is valid.

The thing looking the most like what you seek is "Adjustable" but it has some drawbacks too.

[LakeSide Len]

Hi,

Adunaphel is right about Variant not really doing the trick for the reason noted above. We'll get back to this is a second.

P&P lacks a multipower type framework intentionally. We wanted hero creation to be simple. From our perspective, these all the Multipower type frameworks do is force you to shoe-horn a bunch of powers together to save a few points. That does 2 things we wanted to avoid (1) makes the charactercreation math more complex and (2) gives an advantage to characters whose powers are easier to group together.

We wanted to keep the math easy. And we didn't want the character whose powers are closely related (say, flame powers gained when exposed to cosmic radiation in a badly shielded spaceship) to have a mechanical advantage over characters who combine different, unrelated powers (say, a mutant with animal senses and regeneration, who is also a semi-cyborg thanks to his metal skeleton, and who is also a super skilled special ops guy). The multipower framework is more complex, and make the first character a better opion than the second for no good reason.

Now, what you may be finding is that standard characetrs are kind of weak. They are "1st level" heroes. That might not get you where you want, so you may want to consider starting out with more hero dice to model certain characters.

If you want to give a trait the limitation that it can't be used at the same time as a different trait, you can apply the following con -- Inhibited (can't be used while using traits x, y, or z). The value would depend on how restrictive that ends up being. By applying that con to multiple traits, you can probably save yourself a good number of hero dice.

Okay, finally, trick arrows. (Parthian is my guy, so this one's near and dear to my heart.) The long and short is this: if you want to have a lot of powers, you either have to buy them separately, or you have to use Omni Power. Otherwise, it's just not fair to everyone else. Look at that list of traits: Blast (with 2 variants), Darkness, Dazzle, Ensnare, Stun, Swing Line. That's quite a collection, for a very small price.

What about something like this?

Arrow -- Blast (Marksmanship) --- 5hd
AP Arrow -- Variant: Blast 5d (Item, Penetrating) --- 2hd
Exp Arrow -- Variant: Blast 6d (Area, Item) --- 2hd
Smoke -- Darkness 4d (Charges 6, Item, Ranged) --- 2hd
Flash -- Dazzle 6d (Area, Charges 6, Item) --- 4hd
Net -- Ensnare (Charges 6, Item) --- 4hd
Gas -- Stun 6d (Area, Charges 6, Item) --- 4hd
Line -- Swing Line 5d (Item) --- 2hd

The total difference is +6 hero dice

or

Arrow -- Blast (Marksmanship) --- 5hd
AP Arrow -- Variant: Blast 5d (Item, Penetrating) --- 2hd
Exp Arrow -- Variant: Blast 6d (Area, Item) --- 2hd
Line -- Swing Line 5d (Item) --- 2hd
Trick Arrows -- Omni Power (Projectiles) 9d (Charges 6, Item) --- 12hd

The total difference is +4 hero dice

[Nestor]

Nov 12, 2013 13:51:12 GMT -5 LakeSide Len said:

Hi,

Adunaphel is right about Variant not really doing the trick for the reason noted above. We'll get back to this is a second.

P&P lacks a multipower type framework intentionally. We wanted hero creation to be simple. From our perspective, these all the Multipower type frameworks do is force you to shoe-horn a bunch of powers together to save a few points. That does 2 things we wanted to avoid (1) makes the charactercreation math more complex and (2) gives an advantage to characters whose powers are easier to group together.

We wanted to keep the math easy. And we didn't want the character whose powers are closely related (say, flame powers gained when exposed to cosmic radiation in a badly shielded spaceship) to have a mechanical advantage over characters who combine different, unrelated powers (say, a mutant with animal senses and regeneration, who is also a semi-cyborg thanks to his metal skeleton, and who is also a super skilled special ops guy). The multipower framework is more complex, and make the first character a better opion than the second for no good reason.

That's a fair statement, although it does seem interesting as a design POV, seeing that most other systems seem to reward the player for coming up with a character with a cohesive common-themed set of powers, as opposed to a mish-mash of unrelated abilities. (For the record, I've always considered a certain Canuck claw-wielding hero as a perfect example of a munchkin build).

Now, what you may be finding is that standard characetrs are kind of weak. They are "1st level" heroes. That might not get you where you want, so you may want to consider starting out with more hero dice to model certain characters.

Now this is news to me. My perception was that the Standard level would be exactly that, the default standard. I would consider "1st level" heroes to be the Low end of the scale. Again, not disagreeing with the statement, just a difference in perception (and perhaps something that might need a little more exposition in the book).

If you want to give a trait the limitation that it can't be used at the same time as a different trait, you can apply the following con -- Inhibited (can't be used while using traits x, y, or z). The value would depend on how restrictive that ends up being. By applying that con to multiple traits, you can probably save yourself a good number of hero dice.

After some thought, it occurred to me that, of the set I listed, the only trait that the Inhibited con could really apply to would be Swing Line, and maybe Darkness (seeing as all the others are attacks and therefore technically exclusive). If the hero is using the bow to swing up and over, it's logical to expect he won't be able to shoot with it at the same time. What would you consider the value of the con, -1d or -2d?

Okay, finally, trick arrows. (Parthian is my guy, so this one's near and dear to my heart.) The long and short is this: if you want to have a lot of powers, you either have to buy them separately, or you have to use Omni Power. Otherwise, it's just not fair to everyone else. Look at that list of traits: Blast (with 2 variants), Darkness, Dazzle, Ensnare, Stun, Swing Line. That's quite a collection, for a very small price.

What about something like this?

Arrow -- Blast (Marksmanship) --- 5hd
AP Arrow -- Variant: Blast 5d (Item, Penetrating) --- 2hd
Exp Arrow -- Variant: Blast 6d (Area, Item) --- 2hd
Smoke -- Darkness 4d (Charges 6, Item, Ranged) --- 2hd
Flash -- Dazzle 6d (Area, Charges 6, Item) --- 4hd
Net -- Ensnare (Charges 6, Item) --- 4hd
Gas -- Stun 6d (Area, Charges 6, Item) --- 4hd
Line -- Swing Line 5d (Item) --- 2hd

The total difference is +6 hero dice

or

Arrow -- Blast (Marksmanship) --- 5hd
AP Arrow -- Variant: Blast 5d (Item, Penetrating) --- 2hd
Exp Arrow -- Variant: Blast 6d (Area, Item) --- 2hd
Line -- Swing Line 5d (Item) --- 2hd
Trick Arrows -- Omni Power (Projectiles) 9d (Charges 6, Item) --- 12hd

The total difference is +4 hero dice

Of the two, I would prefer the first option, if only because the Resolve cost with Omni Power still comes across as pricey to me. If possible, I'd add the Inhibited con you mentioned to Darkness and Swing Line, thus bringing down the cost by 2hd.

Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

P.S. Oh, and for the record, archer characters are near and dear to my heart, too, so I'm right there with ya, Len!

[adunaphel]

Thx for the reply Len. Was interesting as I thought Variant could only be aplied once per power, which you're exemple prove wrong.

Just a question, your basic arrows doesn't have the Item con. In my mind the Item was the bow, not each arrow taken individualy, as it seems hard to target a specific arrow in the quiver ?

Nestor, attacks are not mutually exclusives as you can make multiple attacks in a page (with a penalty but it's possible), so ihnibited can be envisaged (but I would'nt go higher than -1).

So in the first proposition you could add Inhibited on top of Item and Charges for a -3 discount per power.

[Nestor]

Nov 12, 2013 15:19:09 GMT -5 adunaphel said:

Just a question, your basic arrows doesn't have the Item con. In my mind the Item was the bow, not each arrow taken individualy, as it seems hard to target a specific arrow in the quiver ?

I can answer that. The basic arrow (I'm assuming you mean the first trait) has the Marksmanship con, which is essentially the Item con with a different name.

Nestor, attacks are not mutually exclusives as you can make multiple attacks in a page (with a penalty but it's possible), so ihnibited can be envisaged (but I would'nt go higher than -1).

So in the first proposition you could add Inhibited on top of Item and Charges for a -3 discount per power.

Yes, but I want the archer to be able to make multiple attacks, i.e., shoot several arrows if necessary, so Inhibited wouldn't be a preferred choice.

My assumption is that using a movement trait is not automatically an action. In other words, flying up to a villain and punching him counts as a single action. My thought was that my archer hero couldn't likewise swing over and shoot as a single action.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong about that and using a movement trait is considered a separate action. What's the call on that, Len?

[LakeSide Len]

Hiyas,

Some quick comments/thoughts:

1. You can have multiple variants, each at 2d.

2. Marksmanship means you need to use a weapon. Item means you need to use a specific weapon. You can't have both.

3. I am not sure I'd be cool with Inhibited applied to 2 separate attacks (because each is fired separately anyway). One of the abilities to which inhibited is applied should be a non-instant effect, like a movement power, or a power like Armor, Invisibility, or Phasing.

4. You get one move and one attack or action per round. Moving is not an action; it's an extra thing you do. I would totally allow inhibited to apply to the Swing Line trait if I were GM. I would never do that as a player, however, because the idea of firing off a few awrrows at the apex of a swing, between line arrows, is way too cool to give up. But I'm all about flash. )

5. It's going to depend on the group and how fast-and-loose they are with Resolve, but what we discovered in play was that, because heroes pool their Resolve, having a trait that costs Resolve is less crippling than in might sound at first.

[Nestor]

Nov 13, 2013 8:56:20 GMT -5 LakeSide Len said:

Hiyas,

Some quick comments/thoughts:

1. You can have multiple variants, each at 2d.

Cool. That does make versatile attacks possible. For instance, you could create a phaser-like gun, with a Stun and Overload settings.

2. Marksmanship means you need to use a weapon. Item means you need to use a specific weapon. You can't have both.

That's what I thought.

3. I am not sure I'd be cool with Inhibited applied to 2 separate attacks (because each is fired separately anyway). One of the abilities to which inhibited is applied should be a non-instant effect, like a movement power, or a power like Armor, Invisibility, or Phasing.

Again, that was my thought too.

"I too was concocting this very same plan, already our minds are becoming one!"
- Puss-in-Boots, Shrek 2 -

4. You get one move and one attack or action per round. Moving is not an action; it's an extra thing you do. I would totally allow inhibited to apply to the Swing Line trait if I were GM. I would never do that as a player, however, because the idea of firing off a few awrrows at the apex of a swing, between line arrows, is way too cool to give up. But I'm all about flash. )

Oh, my character would be all about doing that too, but he'd willingly take the -2d multiple-action penalty 'cause he's so much cooler.

Oh, and the question still stands: would you consider it a -1d  or -2d Con?

5. It's going to depend on the group and how fast-and-loose they are with Resolve, but what we discovered in play was that, because heroes pool their Resolve, having a trait that costs Resolve is less crippling than in might sound at first.

I suppose, but I would think, as a player, I would be a bit miffed if another player kept dipping into the pool almost every page just to do somehting. YMMV.

[LakeSide Len]

Probably -1